Maxim Cramer

Beyond Code: Skills for Impactful Development That Makes a Difference

Soft Skills

0:00:26.8 Maxim Cramer: Hi everyone. First of all, FrenchKit or whatever it will be in the future, thank you very much for having me. It's a joy to be back in Paris, it's a gorgeous city, as I'm sure many of you who live here know. And yes, I am talking about a bit of a weird... Well, I wouldn't say it's a weird thing, but definitely not a code thing today. Simone asked me, 'cause he was like, "I remember you talking about something or another a long time ago, and you're doing some entrepreneurship things now. Do you have anything interesting to share?" And I was like, "Well, there's been this idea that I've been thinking about a lot." And it's funny because ideas is what we will be talking about today. So I'm promising you a talk about impact and how you can grow your impact and let's see how we get on. So it all starts with an idea in the context as well of TED Talks, right? Ideas spread, ideas matter.

0:01:35.9 MC: So everything starts with an idea, we imagine things in our head. And the really nice thing to think about when it comes to ideas is how can we make them spread? So we're gonna do a couple of exercises just to warm you up this afternoon. First of all, can I ask you? Can you imagine a tall giraffe grazing in an East African Safari Park that kind of is towering over visitors. Take a second to imagine that in your mind. Now, of course, it's completely spoiled already, but if you pictured something like this, that's pretty cool. Because what's happened now is suddenly we're all more or less thinking or picturing the same thing, and just by a couple of words, we're having this massively shared experience as a group. So let's see how that evolves.

0:02:27.2 MC: Next one, can you imagine the one iOS error that makes you want to absolutely pull your hair out. I hear some giggles. Now, for me, it's a bit of an old school one, it's the bad access error. I'm glad there are some OG people in the crowd that remember this, that's notoriously hard to debug. I hear you can still get them in Swift, but I think it's a bit less common at this stage. But, what's interesting this time around is chances are we didn't quite picture the same image. And why is that? Because we all have different experiences, and so we will... Maybe for Antoine it's something to do with generics or opaque types. And for me, it was a bad access error, and for you, it could be something else entirely.

0:03:11.8 MC: Now, last one, imagine the various steps and paperwork required to buy a house. It's funny 'cause I had this conversation with Donny earlier, to an extent. Now, if you've not gone through that process, you might have absolutely no clue what to expect, or what you're expecting is based on stories of other people that have said, "Well, it can be a bit of a nightmare." If you have gone through it, you might remember all the things you painstakingly had to learn in this whole process because it was just not something you had done before. Add to that the fact that what I'm picturing here is probably very different. I'm in the UK, you might be in France, some people have come from Germany, some people have come from the Netherlands, and that process is different everywhere you are. And so the thing about ideas is, even though they're very easy to communicate and spread, to an extent, we are all limited by what we have experienced and what we know. We can only really truly imagine the things that we already know.

0:04:08.9 MC: Of course there are visionaries and people that... I don't wanna discount innovation, obviously we're in a field of innovation. But it is interesting, the innovation can only work if you're very good at communicating that vision and that idea that you have. So today, I've effectively promised you a talk about how to grow your impact. And the thing I landed on in terms of how do you grow your impact is make it really easy for other people to tap into your brain and the knowledge that you already have. Now, you might be thinking, "Well, I already do that kind of stuff: I blog, I livestream, I tweet, I have newsletters and I publish things open source. But still, I think you'll get something from this because it's not just about the code that we write. The way that you can spread impact affects us in our day-to-day jobs, it affects us when we work with different teams, it affects us when we're trying to market ourselves or perhaps even get a new position, so I do challenge you to think about it in a couple of different ways. The thing about this is that we have so much knowledge and often we're only really sharing a fraction of it.

0:05:20.9 MC: So, why is that so, so key? Well, we are basically in this exponentially growing madness of an industry, and for a lot of people out there actually, we're here all the time, we come to these conferences, we learn new things, we're always on the cutting edge, Swift... We went all the way from Swift 2 to Swift 5.7, we're on that edge. But for a lot of other people, this stuff is really hard to grasp. And if we grow our impact in this kind of way, we have the opportunity to welcome everyone in this space. In case you need reminding, this is actually an old stat. We touch our phones on average 2500 times a day. That's what they said in 2017, I don't even really wanna know what it is today. Add to that that most of the data that we're using, almost close to 90%, was generated within the last two years. So it is growing very, very quickly. And close to 50% of all the tech and all the innovation that's happening is kind of what's considered disruptive tech, which is what we are doing. It could be AR/VR, Artificial Intelligence, robotics. But even SaaS as a software, it's all kind of new technology that a lot of people aren't used to, and that's half of it.

0:06:34.5 MC: All this is coming together in an industry that's set to exceed 5.3 trillion [$]. See, you don't even say that word that much. 5.3 trillion by the end of just this year. And it's not just us, collectively, all the startups that we're probably working for or working with, they're estimated of one in a half-ish million. And as of last year, that is just basically the biggest number that the world has ever seen. We're used to that, everything is becoming the biggest number that the world has ever seen, but it doesn't negate the fact that this industry is absolutely exploding. But despite that, the access to it is still extremely limited. For us, it's been easier than ever. We spin up a server now, we start a new project, we grab a Swift playground and off we go. But for the everyday person that's using that technology, so much of it is still a mystery, specifically so the types of people that I work with. So, I started doing iOS development in 2009, but at this stage, I work predominantly with female founders who are non-technical, new to the industry, and who are trying to basically bring their expertise that they've had before into the tech industry.

0:07:51.3 MC: Now, if you are in a similar field, you might be aware of this fact, but if you're not, this is quite a sobering stat. In 2021, female founders in the US only secured about 2% of all the venture capital that was being shared out. This has gone down from the really high number it was the year before, a whole 2.3. Now, if that's not worrying you, that would surprise me because at the end of the day, again, we're talking about limited access, we're all using technology. So the question I have then is, shouldn't we all be creating technology as well? Some of the things my clients are working on are, for example, reducing the burden of proof for domestic abuse in the UK, some people are working on increasing education and certification for people who are incarcerated in the US, and some people are working on allowing folks to get financial assistance in just 90 seconds. This is also a US one because there it's notoriously hard to get support if you are being evicted, you can't pay your rent and so on. That's kind of cool stuff. So how do we then in this room use our skills and our knowledge to make technology much more accessible for everyone? And why does that matter?

0:09:07.3 MC: I'd like to tell you a story. (Originally I had three, I managed to work it down to one. But if everyone gets drunk enough tonight, I have enough horror stories that fall in this category!) So this is the one where developer happiness took centre stage, pun intended. So, I wanna say about 2015, a female founder approached me and she was working on this app and she made it out onto the App Store, which is already a huge thing. She'd been working with this one developer and now she had switched over to another team. She finally managed to get together a little bit of funding, and for some reason couldn't work with the original developer anymore, and now had two different people.

0:09:43.4 MC: And she was like, "Maxim, they don't know what to do. They say they are iOS developers, but they can't seem to use the code base." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" It's like, "Well, apparently the previous person had used this thing like ReactiveCocoa... " (I've been told by Simone to say ReactiveCocoa for the French people in the room.) "And they're using this thing, and they say they can't do it and I don't know what's going on." And I'm like, "Yeah." Because we might be going to conferences, we might be using some of these cutting edge frameworks, but not everyone does. So for those of you maybe that weren't writing apps at that time, ReactiveCocoa was a framework that allowed you to effectively subscribe to signals so that you could get very easy updates about other things that were happening in the code back when... Pre-Swift, the Objective-C of the dark ages.

0:10:33.5 MC: Now, that choice, right or wrong, I can't criticize the developer who chose that because there was probably a very good reason for that. But the thing is, the choices that we make affect absolutely everything that comes after us, and we're not always aware of it. So what we have now is a founder who basically can't hire a replacement who isn't already aware of that. And with her limited funds and the team that she'd put together, at this stage, that team is able to work with that code base. However, it's taking them longer, they're more confused, less updates are possible, and more of her money is basically going down the drain because it's costing her more in the sense that it's taking people more time to work with this. Some of the other stories are people that have started web projects in PHP, and then that person couldn't find anyone that was still writing PHP at a affordable rate. Another story is where someone said, "Oh, of course, we'll make a community app for you, that will be $70,000." Again, in our field, that's not a shocking stat, but really this person only needed an existing white labeling solution that could be wrapped into an app.

0:11:45.8 MC: There's so many different ways effectively to create technology. And the thing is that very often we actually set the tone and set the foundation for what the teams around us are able to do just by the text stack choices that we make. Now, before you start furiously tweeting, "But not all dare, Maxim, I wouldn't have done that." Right? That's totally fine, I get that. It made me think about, how do we end up here? Why is this happening? And why are we in this situation to begin with? So I started thinking a little bit about my own story because as a woman in tech, I actually very often get asked, "Well, why are you a woman in tech?" I'm like," Oh, I don't really know." I was quite young, I was about five years old, and we got a Compaq. This was no Apple yet, unfortunately, running Windows 95. And I was like, "Oh, that's a cool thing. How can I get it to do more interesting things?" And so before you know it, I was developing things, I was making websites, I was redesigning stuff on, let's be honest, cracked versions of Adobe Photoshop. And before you know it, I'm writing iOS apps.

0:12:55.7 MC: Now, how did that actually come to be? Well, first of all, there was a stage of curiosity, right? And we probably all know that as a child, you're infinitely curious about things, you're always running around being like, "Huh, how does this work?" And what happens is that over time that curiosity becomes familiarity, suddenly you start to realize, "Oh, I have more or less an idea of what to expect here, I'm starting to feel like I get how this works." Ultimately until you get to the stage of comfort. With comfort, you're no longer surprised by what happens, and even if something surprising does happen, you can probably work out why that's happened because you understand what's going on underneath. Now, that's the thing that you're starting to fill up, basically the relationship between cause and effect. The opposite of that is discomfort, which again, a surprising amount of people still have with technology. I'm sure you can relate to the image, at least I've seen a lot of people hovering over the keyboard, not quite sure what button to press, not quite sure what to do, probably because they had a bad experience at some point or another.

0:14:02.1 MC: And if you're thinking, "Well, we have UX designers now." We've progressed back from the dark ages of the '90s and the notes where data went missing all the time because someone forgot to press a floppy disk save button, it is actually still an issue today. So technophobia is described as an abnormal fear of anxiety about the effects of advanced technology. Which remember, was about 50% of all the technology that's being developed all the time. And it's affecting a third of the population. This was in 2019. Such to the extent that they have health problems or they feel like they can't actually do their work properly. So this whole notion of discomfort is a very, very real issue. And why is that? Well, you have no idea what's going to happen.

0:14:48.1 MC: The thing that's often missing for people is the relationship between cause and effect. So if you're thinking about, for example, a horror movie, right? You are in this continuous state of suspense, you have no idea what's going on. And what that means is, to an extent you're unable to relax unless you're a massive fan of the genre, you love horror movies to the point that you can probably predict most of those things that are gonna happen. And if the director still manages to scare you, you're like, "Well done. That was cool." And so that is one side of things. The other side of things is a lot of things that people... They've created links between things that they aren't sure they can trust. So what if you're basing your belief on something inaccurate? For example, basing love on a Disney movie?

0:15:34.9 MC: Now, I was a big fan of Aladdin as a kid, and I still think it's a pretty good one. But if I took away from this, that it's totally okay for someone to pretend to be a complete different person when you meet them, and that's what love is, probably not the best conclusion to take. So a lot of people, they don't trust what to expect when it comes to technology because they've been burnt in the past, so even if we're still talking about data that went missing over 10 years ago, those experiences do really matter in terms of how much people can trust technology. 'Cause ultimately the question then becomes, how can we draw the right conclusions between cause and effect so that we know what to expect? And that's a very hard challenge for all of us, because sometimes there is the same inputs, but you're getting different outputs. So when we think back to, for example, high school, some people are all studying the same amount for a test, but we all get different grades. The inverse is also true. Some people study a lot more, some people study a lot less and you can still have the same grades. So input and output doesn't necessarily mean appropriate cause and effect. So how can we improve these expectations?

0:16:44.2 MC: Now, as we saw, usually it's experience, the more you do something, the better. If you add in a good dose of trial and error, works great, right? That's that whole approach of, "Well, what does this button do?" But you have to be firstly, comfortable learning in that way, but also not everyone has that luxury. So some of the founders I work with, they literally pour their life savings into these projects. Someone was working to build an iOS app for their company, they managed to collect $20,000, built that first app. But the founder was still living on food stamps this entire process, so they don't have the luxury of trial and error and starting over. Add to that as well, sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. Thinking about the example where I was talking about a couple of those stories that I have of different founders, they don't know anything about a text stack, they don't know whether PHP is a good starting point for a web project today, they aren't sure what ReactiveCocoa or ReactiveCocoa is. And so whether or not to have a conversation with a developer about, "Gosh, do you think it's a great idea if we're gonna use this framework or not?" Sometimes as well, we don't even know how to communicate our expectations, or we don't even realize that we have them.

0:18:04.4 MC: So, what can we do about this? Well, we only have the ideas available to us that we have, but because we have so much knowledge in this room and because we only share a fraction of it, that is why I think impact is that key cornerstone. In order to get that out there, we need to figure out which pieces of knowledge, the ones that we have, are worth sharing and how to best do so. So, how do you do that? Well, firstly, you can ask questions to identify the missing piece of information when you're in a conversation with someone. What we're trying to learn effectively is, what's the mental model of the other person. Thinking back to the ideas of the giraffe and so on, we can only really transmit once we have an idea of what can you imagine? What can I imagine?

0:18:54.6 MC: And how can we get that across? We do the same thing when we look at user research. I don't know if... Has anyone here been in a usability session and watch their users use their apps? I love it. Not enough hands are going up, but some are, and I'm very happy. More of you should do this because it's so fascinating to see someone struggle with something that you've built. And the whole reason we do these sessions is because we then learn their mental model, we understand how they are kind of translating what they're seeing into the options available to them. And if we're not communicating that properly in a UI or in a UX experience, then that's on us to fix. It's the exact same when we're spreading ideas in conversations: What are the expectations that they have, and on which beliefs are they based?

0:19:43.0 MC: You can ask questions like, why is this important to you? What are you hoping to achieve, and how do you think I can help? Underpinning this all is the whole notion of being curious about why someone is asking the questions that they're asking. So ultimately, it's just practice of thinking about questions that the other person may not have even thought to ask. Other things you can ask yourself are, are we using the right tools for the job? Is this really the right framework? Do we have the right people with the right skills on this team? And do we have the right timeline for this goal? I said this last time as well, what's interesting is: there's a reason why, in the trailers, you see clips that never actually make it into the movie; because the trailer is cut so much, such a time before the film, they put a rush job on finishing those shots, but they obviously leave all the rest for the movies later. So it's the same in our projects, right? We always get asked all of these crazy deadlines, "Can you finish the app by then? Can you finish the app by that point? Can you get this screen done? Can you make it polished? Can you do this?" And we are just like, "Whew. How much of us is there?" Right? There's a limit to what we can do in a certain piece of time, but perhaps by understanding the goal of the team better, the goal of the people asking you that question, what is it that we're trying to achieve? Can we be creative about this? Can we re-shuffle certain things and get certain pieces done before or not?

0:21:11.3 MC: Once we start to understand why people are asking things of us, we can effectively use our knowledge and our skills to then still accomplish the goal as a team. Similar to that, do we have the right complexity? Are we just trying to prove traction? If you're in early stages in startups, you're aware that obviously getting that initial traction can lead to next sources of funding, and so perhaps it's not about the fancy animations yet, perhaps it's just about getting those first couple of users. So those are a couple of things you can do. The other thing I would say, going back to that idea of the giraffe, is communicate in the most common denominator that you have, which is ultimately everyday language. Even though maybe not all of us have seen a giraffe, we have seen images, maybe we've been to the zoo. You may not have even been to East Africa, but again, we've seen enough of it that that is in our common domain. However, most of the time we tend to explain technology with more technology. So ideally instead, we would use languages and examples that we all have in common. What this does is it builds bridges between what we tend to know and the unknown.

0:22:20.4 MC: By linking concepts, we can bring over certain things that are tied to other concepts and instantly apply them to new things. I'm pretty sure I can take a code example of like, "Hey, if you just apply this type to something, you get all of these functions for free over there as well," but then I would be explaining this with more technology. Instead, you can use stories or metaphors to make these complex ideas really easily accessible. Some of the ones I use very often is comparing engineers to musicians because very many people I work with say, "I'm just looking for a full stack engineer," and instead, they're working on an iOS app that has some kind of clever AI in the background and whatnot. And I'm like, "You're probably not gonna find a full stack that will do all of that." Engineers are a little bit like musicians. They play a range of different instruments and yes, a couple of them might play multiple instruments, but it's hard to imagine that a fantastic drummer is gonna be a great guitarist and an impressive vocalist and a fantastic pianist. Ultimately, as you start to tack on more skills, the chance of finding that person goes down, not to mention the type of thing you're trying to do might be very different depending on the kind of band you're trying to set up. A jazz band is not a metal band, so even if you find a really great guitarist, they might be particularly skilled in one type of style than the other.

0:23:37.4 MC: Now, metaphors aren't perfect, and you can probably find holes in what I just said, but they do unlock doors and they do make ideas more accessible. Stories are also complete. They have a beginning, middle, and an end, and what that means is that, by someone else's story, suddenly people can realize that cause and effect, they can skip that whole process of trying to understand why does something lead to a certain outcome? Because the story already tells that for you. So rather than thinking all of this as like either business speak or that's something that some of the other teams do, you can actually use all of your knowledge and think of how to draw connections between how your decisions impact other things for the team, whether that is budgets or timelines or whatever it could be. Another great thing to do is capture that shared understanding visually.

0:24:43.3 MC: So I do a lot of design facilitation and I simply don't have the time (I already saw some timers come up) to go through all of this today. But if you do have some visual people on the team, being able to capture that suddenly means that we're all looking at the same thing and we can start to see: are we actually all talking about the same thing? Now, if this sounds like a lot, just pause. It's simple steps. All you really have to do is check yourself, if you suddenly think, "Gosh, why doesn't this person understand the implication of this particular technical choice?" If you can just take a minute and ask yourself, "What am I missing? What can I ask to understand more about what's going on here?" And then just keep practicing.

0:25:32.1 MC: So today, I promised to talk about how to grow your impact, and really the secret is that being able to recognize what other people need and then make that available to them, at the right time, is one of the easiest ways to be able to scale impact, whether or not you are trying to think about doing a newsletter or just something at your work. The whole idea is to find that common ground in order to transfer ideas, and once that happens, ideas will spread. If you are still thinking, "Well, isn't that why we have PMs? Isn't that the job of the CTO or other people? Why am I the one that should be doing that?" The thing is, as I said, we all have so much knowledge and we only share a fraction of it, and that the same thing holds for all of the other people on the team because we're all focused on slightly different things. The stuff that you're looking after, the stuff that you are thinking about, the bugs that you're fixing, the views that you're building, they're completely different from the things that a project manager will do, product manager will do, a CTO will do, or a designer will do, and so everyone should be able to spread ideas really, really effectively.

0:26:44.8 MC: Not to mention that connecting dots is literally what we do. And so why wouldn't we do it in the way that we communicate? So thinking about impact, I still stand by, one of the best ways to do that is to make it really easy for other people to tap into your brain and into your knowledge, and just maybe then we might build a world where innovation is effortlessly created by everyone, by all the diverse people that it aims to serve.

Thank you very much.


0:27:15.9 MC: Now I get to sit on the exciting Q&A chair. [chuckle]

0:27:24.5 Greg: Yes. Thank you, Maxim. Thank you so much. You told us about one iOS error that makes you want to pull your hair out, is it only one?

0:27:37.8 MC: No. It's the worst one, though. Have you ever dealt with a bad access error?

0:27:43.7 Greg: Never. [chuckles]

0:27:44.5 MC: Oh, how about you? I know you must have.

0:27:46.8 Greg: I did also, yeah of course.


0:27:52.3 Greg: I wanted to ask you, what do you think about the personal branding in the developer industry?

0:27:58.6 MC: What about it specific?

0:28:00.2 Greg: What do you think about the fact that we can see more and more developers acting like being more public, going on stage, writing blog posts, publishing open source things and so on. Do you think it's a good trend, is it something that all developers should try to do at some point?

0:28:19.0 MC: I think it's a great trend, one of the things I really like about this community as well is anyone can actually come up here and share their ideas and share their knowledge. Yes, you might initially get rejected, Antoine was great for putting that little email up, but ultimately we're all able to share ideas. Is it something everyone should do? Not necessarily, and it's one of the reasons I actually was very excited to give this talk and show you a variety of ways of being able to do that, because not everyone wants to put themselves out there, not everyone necessarily is excited about... I've never contributed to open source libraries... Well, a tiny bit with CocoaPods, but overall, that's not my primary way of sharing things, but I have other ways of doing it, so even now we have even more mediums, you could have a podcast, you could have a newsletter, you could have a local meet-up, you could run something in your office. I used to run these sessions for our sales team because they were selling the features of the product, but they had actually no idea what they meant or how they worked, for example.

0:29:18.6 MC: So there's so many different ways of doing it. I think the public people get a lot of clout and everyone thinks, "Oh, that's the only way." But I don't think it is, but it is a great way, and I think it's wonderful that we can learn from each other in that way.

0:29:32.2 Greg: Great. Not a question, but you mentioned the fact that the tech industry is not very accessible. I'd like to mention something that Apple did, in fact, it started in France at the beginning of 2019, it's called the Apple Foundation Program, it's something where they teach people who have basically no technical knowledge at all to learn how to make mobile apps, and I think we might have people from the Apple Foundation Program here.

0:30:02.4 MC: Yes, awesome.

0:30:08.0 MC: That's fantastic. What I think is interesting about that though is... We are actually at the moment teaching more people than ever to write code, which is fantastic, but for example, a founder, in the case of the people I work with, they need to know just enough to be able to figure out, okay, what's realistic? How do I hire a good person to do this? Like, how long will it take to build this? What can I do? What can't I do? But learning about how a variable works or how to write a function isn't gonna help them do that, and there are very little pieces that kind of bridge that gap for folks, and that's kind of why... I mean, like the way we share things might need to change depending on the context we're in or the types of people we're talking to, but it is great because like you say, we do need more of this, and so the fact that Apple and other companies are starting to really get behind that is fantastic.

0:30:58.8 Greg: We can also see lots of founders that are starting to attend like tech bootcamp or things like that to start learning a bit of the basics of programming to understand more the technical teams they will work with along their journey.

0:31:12.1 MC: Exactly.

0:31:14.0 Simone: I have two questions. The first one being about the, as you said, the founder issue. So, as you described, some of us or most of us, are maybe sometime failing to deliver the right information to somebody who's not technological: is there something more we can do, maybe at the school level, to solve this problem, to make technical people go a level lower and maybe not to be too technical in some cases?

0:31:50.4 MC: I think so. I mean, I think putting together educational curriculum is a big question, especially nowadays, what do we teach kids? Because things are changing so quickly that probably by the time they're five years into their education, something else comes up. I do think just in general, tech is everywhere, and so it should be part of everyday curriculum, in whichever way you interact with it, given that we're all using it on a day-to-day basis, it in some way, shape or form has to be part of it, whether that is programming, whether that is creating things using technology, understanding how it works, what's a server? What's the cloud? What is the internet? It could be anything, really. It's a very big question, and I could talk about that for half an hour, so I'm gonna stop there, but yeah.

0:32:40.5 Simone: I have a super big question, I'm very sorry. If you want to say "joker", we can skip it.

0:32:46.9 MC: No, bring it.

0:32:47.9 Simone: So we are running a conference (and we are running also a meetup) and in some cases, we can imagine that some people may live in some discomfort in being in a conference, and of course, that brings up subject of topics like inclusiveness and making everybody able to attend a conference like this one, for instance. Is there any advices you'd like to give us? I mean, I know it's a very hard question.

0:33:22.0 MC: Well, I think first and foremost, what's the purpose of a conference? Going back to first principles, I do think we all learn in different ways, and a conference might not be the best method for absolutely everyone, and so by definition, you're not gonna get absolutely everyone to necessarily come to a conference or be able to use it in a particular way. That being said, the second step then indeed becomes for people who are interested in a conference, either joining, learning, speaking or whatever, but feel like they can't because of certain barriers. That's where the interesting question really is, right? How can we do... How can we create an environment where people feel comfortable? I think conferences in general have tried to take a lot of steps towards that. We have a code of conduct. I know a lot of organizers, you guys put a lot of work into trying to get diverse folks out there. I come here with my weird and wacky talk about ideas instead of something much more interesting about Swift that got released a couple of weeks ago. But I think that's what helps, like the whole point of being in a conference is to be exposed to different ideas.

0:34:21.6 MC: The other thing is to meet each other and to learn from each other, and so for example, the fact that you have done classrooms or workshops or other types of contexts that you can learn, or you have smaller scales and you have big scales, so people have a chance to ask questions or just listen, like the variety of methodology of communication tends to be really helpful. I know there's a lot of studies of like how the brain works and how it learns. Even then, it's still different for everyone, but having visual, audio, tactile type of things, they all help. And so if you follow along by programming or if you do different things in these workshops or these master classes, it does help retain information, it also gives you a chance, again, to talk to each other and learn from each other, so I think multimodal is probably the first thing I think of when I think of making learning inclusive for more people.

0:35:16.3 Simone: Thank you so much, really.

0:35:17.2 MC: Sure.

0:35:17.4 Greg: Thank you, Maxim.

0:35:18.6 MC: Thank you very much.


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